The Wind Waker was a fabulous game. It carried the already well established Zelda series over to Nintendo's new console of the time, the Gamecube. It was a classic Zelda experience, but at the same time, it wasn't too much of a carbon copy of any of the other games in the series. Sure, there were some similar things, but for the most of it, the game was new and creative. No, the cel-shaded toon-graphics weren't the only new thing, although, that is what sticks in people's minds.
It would not be too far from accurate to say that there is about a 50-50 split between those who were pleased with the toon graphics, and those who weren't. Regardless of your view, Nintendo did take a gamble in going down the path of cel-shading, and it goes without saying, that the gamble was worth it. But as I sit here, almost seven years later, I wonder, what happened? Nintendo brought something new to console Zelda, yet we haven't seen it since.
The graphical style that we saw in The Wind Waker is basically what has lead to what we've seen with the two DS titles, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks. They've taken the style of The Wind Waker, and used it in an altered and simplified way. Maybe we'll keep seeing toon Link on the DS, but that seems only like wasted potential. In future titles on the DS, hopefully Nintendo will move on and explore new graphical possibilities. What I'd love to see is a fully fledged-console Zelda using the style of The Wind Waker.
There is no hope now for the upcoming Zelda Wii to embark up that alley, as it is taking the more realistic graphical approach, although we aren't certain of how it will look. Is that really good? Is a realistic approach really that realistic? Because The Wind Waker didn't go for being as real as possible, it was in many regards better. Once players were initially over the new style, it wasn't about how realistic the cutscene affects were, because they were simple animation. Because of that simplicity it became about the actual story itself. It became about human emotion and little details like footprints in the sand. Twilight Princess did nicely portray emotions through facial animation, but that style couldn't make it the main focus. Only simple animation can highlight these simple things when using limited time. Sure, all styles could have the same detail, given time, but there is much more allocation for it in a cel-shaded environment.
Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess: they went for a more real life looking approach, and that limited the games. When you go for realistic, you have to keep going to make it work. Cel-shading is simpler, crisper even. It eliminates many worries, and gives a sense of freedom as the animation isn't solely about being real. We've heard it said that less can be more, like fewer dungeons, but made longer, could be more of an experience. In this case, simpler animation can give more. When the developers focus on facial emotions, as opposed to a fabulous explosion that looks almost movie-quality, us players are getting something more. Simple explosions, simple graphics, in The Wind Waker allowed for an expansion in other areas.
Imagine now, the same style, simple and yet very intricate, on the Wii. It can still bring all of the aspects fans want, whether that is motion controls, voice acting, even multiple player, but it can bring so much more. Maybe Nintendo has completely moved on from the cel-shading idea, maybe they haven't. It may not be the actual graphics themselves that make cel-shading so appealing, but what it escalated to in The Wind Waker, that's what makes me yearn to see them again. What it allowed them to do in terms of gameplay, was simply stunning. I'm not going to claim that The Wind Waker is the best Zelda ever, but many aspects of it are better than elsewhere in the Zelda series. Much of that is owed to its graphical style.
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Too long? I disagree. Cel shading has only appeared on one console title. In contract, there have been 3 realistic ones (OOT, MM, and TP). Meanwhile, they did do cell shading on the DS, but that more or less may have been done due to hardware limitations and wanting to present a decent looking 3D enviroment versus another 2D handheld Zelda.
i would definitely not be mad at another cel-shaded game on a console
Agreed. For me, TWW's graphics are the best, not only for Zelda, but maybe for all videogames.
Honestly, I don't like much the realistic approach. Ok, it fits well in some games, but Zelda is a fantasy series, and I think make it more like the real world limits its potential. We've already seen Aonuma's complaints about Twilight Princess. I don't know why most people have this fixation for real graphics, and why they think good graphics = real graphics. Personally, I think it's the opposite, because the game may want to look real, but it never (at least not for a while) properly achieve that. A cartoonish title don't have this feeling.
So yes, I wanted to see cel-shading on Zelda consoles more times, too. Not necessarily in the actual Toon Link style. I like it a lot, but it would be nicer have a new style, but with the cel-shade effect.
Prime examples of good recent titles that didn't go fully realistic:
No More Heroes 1 and 2, Madworld.
Of course, then a game like Monster Hunter Tri happens that completely defeats the cartoon style argument for Nintendo consoles.
That, and every 360 and ps3 game.
I don't think nintendo should go for the cel shaded look again, like the article said, its about 50/50 for the people who like the cel shading, but i've never heard anyone say anything bad about Tp's graphics. It would look nice to not have too much realism in the next game like TP did. Ocarina of time did a great job of not too realistic, but not cartoonish. If nintendo can make the realism like Ocarina of time, but with today's Graphics, i think they would do a great job. Like chapolink said, i agree with him, this is a fantacy series, so i dont think they should go for the really, really realisticness, but in between.
I've thought about this some too, great post!
I tend to agree that that being freed from hyper-realism makes for better animation. Don't get me wrong, I thought TP was a good looking game and love to be awed by great visuals. But the Wii is going to pale in comparison to really good looking PS3 or 360 games, so they are better off going for stylized graphics.
Even if it is not cel-shaded, look at SMG...Galaxy was a great looking game, but not realistic. They stylized graphics made it look marvelous.
Plus, with stylized graphics you can emphasize things any way you want. You can make heads larger relative to bodies and dramatize facial expressions, etc.
I AM MORE IMPRESSED WITH CREATIVE, ARTISTIC ANIMATION THAN WITH ATTEMPTING TO MIMIC THE REAL WORLD
I would MUCH rather see a game absolutely nail cel-shaded/stylized graphics than strain to match reality.
BTW, it seems like a cel-shaded Mario would would be a natural fit. In any case I would really like to see more cel-shaded Nintendo games
I don't know. I loved The Wind Waker, and its graphics. But I don't know if it would work for Zelda Wii. I mean, it might, but in some way, unless the overworld works good with it, I don't think that it would feel right.
@Irishfire
I mostly agree with your comment (really I think that for Zelda you are right: they should shoot for something between realistic and stylized), except that I definitely have heard people knock TP's graphics, and while I still think it was a pretty game there were some things that I did not like visually:
1.) Some of the textures were a little rough...particularly the grass texture for most of the field got really monotonous. But in other places too, the textures were too muted or gloomy
2.) On gloominess, I got sick of the murkiness of the twilight pretty quickly, I think that they could have gotten the same or better vibe with less grayness (I know 2D is a different ballgame, but look at the dark world in ALttP...it felt threatening, but not drowsy). Further, the double gloominess of the wolf-vision view was unappealing to me from the get-go.
3.) The animation on some of the characters felt a little stilted. Voice acting actually might have helped this, but even in the most graphically impressive games (like Modern Warfare or the clips of Mass Effect 2 I have seen) the characters have a sort of creepy mannequin feeling to them. I think with stylized graphics things feel more like characters and less like puppets...
You make good points there. I want a newer graphical approach not for the new Zelda but the Next. What if the merged Twilight Princess Graphics with The Wind Waker. The characters could be of a realistic Size like Twilight Princess but colorful and Cel-Shaded. It's hard to explain but maybe something like Okami. Right now I'm okay with the direction we're going in. The DS is perfect for Cel-Shaded graphics because of the Small Screens and the Wii is good with Reslistic Characters because of the Extra Graphic power and Large Screen. But in the future why not? But I still don't want another Wind Waker copy, I want something Like Wind Waker but some new ideas and styles.
If you're lucky they are releasing a New Play Control! version of The Wind Waker, haha. But of course they would mirror the entire game to make Link right-handed. :D
I want a game with graphics just like Wind Waker but the gameplay just like A Link To The Past.
RELATED...Eiji Aonuma on "Deformation"
"With three dimensional videogames, or those that you might call more realistic, you have to have the appropriate proportions between all the objects and enemies. Human beings must be depicted naturally as we are. That would be rather strange on a small screen if you wanted to identify what a small object is or put in characters' actions, for example.
So that's why we always use what we call 'deformation' in the DS games. Cel shading is much more preferable than the more realistic look we have for the home console games. For DS, first we decided to use the touch screen controls and top screen angle. We thought that was best, and we also thought cel shading was a must."
http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/article.php?id=14713
I definatly agree with Jupiter, In the dark world, twilight princess was way to gloomy and dark, made it seem like night all the time. I think Wind Waker did an excellent job of manipulating the lighting. Like on islands and the great sea, things were very bright and kept the player awake! and in darker places like forbidden fortress, it was darker cuz it was an evil place, but it still had a nice brighter feel to it. Although the one thing i didnt like about wind waker was that, although the lighting was excellent outside of dungeons, when you are in them, it does seem a little too happy and bright for a dungeon/ evil place. I thought that TP demonstrated that well when the inside of the dungeon chambers had a evil, and dark feel to them. there are torches on the walls and thats were the light was coming from and the places without torches were a little bit darker, i think that going with cel shading, not so cartoonish tho, and having a darker feel to dungeons compared to the over world, would do a great job of capturing the feel of hyrule.
I do not care if the graphics are realistic or otherwise, as long as I can figure out what is going on (and not get a headache from it). In short, I would rather go with crisp and clear then realistic.
On the topic of Twilight Princess, sometimes it was so dark, I had to turn up the brightness on my TV to see where I was going. I hope the next game is brighter.
I've brought this up before, but I feel that this would be great for a new game.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0e/Link_LOZ_with_items.png
That picture of Link is colorful and slightly cartoonish, but more realistic than The Wind Waker.
This way the game wouldn't look out of date mere months after release, which is what happened to Twilight Princess.
Most people's gripe with TWW (and TMC, and PH, and ST) isn't necessarily the graphics-- it's how the graphics set the tone for the series.
If Nintendo wanted to solidify the Zelda series as a whimsical, lighthearted cavalcade of super-deformed characters, then they shouldn't have gotten off on the wrong foot with gamers by making Ocarina of Time the way they did. OoT was most gamers' first foray into the Zelda series, and as such, it set the tone for many gamers as to how Zelda should be. OoT was dark, gritty, and overall, EPIC (and it's sequel, Majora's Mask was moreso). It rebooted the series in such a way that gamers like myself just can't let go.
It always mystified me why Nintendo was so taken aback by the initial reaction to TWW. You don't say "this is the definitive version of the series" with OoT and then turn around a few years later, give us TWW and say "no, THIS is what we always wanted to do." Sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.
Look, I don't dislike any of the cel-shaded games-- but I will never consider their art-style and overall tone to be the definitive presentation for the Zelda series.
@FDLink
It's interesting that you take OOT as the definitive Zelda. I have the same feelings towards LoZ.
Maybe the first game that hooks you is what really defines the series for you.
That said, imo, the Aonuma Zelda's are, imo, a step back from the early Zeldas. They are too linear, too vacant, and too rote. But that has nothing to do with graphical style.
Jupiter - "It's interesting that you take OOT as the definitive Zelda. I have the same feelings towards LoZ. Maybe the first game that hooks you is what really defines the series for you."
Well, yes and no. OoT was my first Zelda, but it was also the first 3D entry, which is the main reason why it carries the weight it does with the series. I love the classic Zeldas, and I feel that OoT's art-style, tone and presentation are an evolution of theirs, and are therefore more definitive.
TWW's style by comparison, is a complete overhaul-- and not in a good way. I just can't take the darker elements of its story seriously when the characters have huge cat-eyes and stubby legs. Maybe that kind of revisionism works in Japan, but Nintendo really shouldn't have been surprised that it ruffled the feathers of the international Zelda fanbase the way it did.
Like I said, I don't hate the games that have this style. In fact, I thought Spirit Tracks was the best Zelda since the Oracle series, IMO. However I feel it could've been even better if it had adopted an OoT/MM-style presentation.
@FDLink
"I love the classic Zeldas, and I feel that OoT's art-style, tone and presentation are an evolution of theirs, and are therefore more definitive."
I understand your POV, and I halve no qualms with OoT itself, I just don't think the series should have continued to riff on that game as much as it did...
OoT was a triumph. It did, as you say, feel, in style and tone, like an evolution of the first 4 Zelda's, particularly ALttP. Further, the new targeting system, lighting effects, variable A button, the simulation of a musical instrument, and the diurnal cycles in the overworld were all marvels. It should be cherished not only as a successful translation of Zelda into 3D, but as a major step forward in 3D gaming altogether. To say nothing of the story, music, etc.
But I do think that there were aspects of it that we continue to see applied to new games that I wish were not:
Nintendo was significantly limited by early 3D technology. As much as I was awed by the game on the first play through, I was disappointed by the lack of enemies in the overworld. I think that the system just did not have enough power to populate Hyrule the way it was in 2D (TP is getting closer, but not quite there, imo).
Also, and most regretably, the gamepath is heavily proscribed for you. There is a precise order to the quests and dungeons you must go on. When you can enter a dungeon or part of the overworld is strictly, stiflingly defined for you. This to me is almost anti-Zelda. Zelda is about openness (to me at least--think of LoZ, the only instruction you get is "It's dangerous to go alone"...) I think they did this because it takes so long to traverse a 3D overworld, but I really think it is a huge, destructive development to the series.
Finally, just like the big saucer eyes you lament in WW, there are some things that were introduced in OoT that were too cartooney for me. Namely the Deku Shrubs, Zoras, and especially the Gorons. The Gorons are too goofy for words. I like the idea of having these other races, I just wish they were not so hard to take seriously.
As good as OoT was, I have been sorry to see that its success has meant we have to keep reliving the less appealing parts of it as new games have been released.
Why does everyone keep saying that OoT had a realistic look? It looks every bit as cartoony as Windwaker and the previous Zeldas. TP is the only Zelda that is realistic.
Does anyone know that TP an TWW's graphics have a very similar feel, the enemy deaths even lookk similar. They DO run of the same engine.
Zelda Wii is a response to us "gamers" expectations of Zelda. Personally i can't wait, its gonna be so awesome it will topple Oot. When gamers talk about Wii they are gonna talk about "Zelda Wii". It would be awesome if Nintendo did do another Celda, unfortunately thats for the next console to differentiate an awesome game from pretty graphics coz i think the playing field will be level in terms of graphical capabilities. 2015 and wishes will be fulfilled
Well like someone else said, not everyone likes the WW graphics, while everyone or almost everyone likes TP or OOT graphics. They'd rather be 90/10 than 50/50, wouldn't they?
I like the edgy look of TP/OOT graphics.
Depends, what are we basing the 50/50 demographic on? How are we determining the 90/10 stat? Statistics can be bent to mean anything you want them too.
In reality, half the Zelda nation does not dislike TWW graphic style. I would say 90% did before the game hit, but ever since it has had world wide acclaim. I think it's more like a 70/30 split. TP actually got complaints, because the game felt dated graphically right out the bat, and many people claimed TWW simply looked better. It is true, TWW graphics are timeless, and only truly get better with HD.
Then look at the sucess of PH and ST, two games that also use cel shading. Obviously, there is a significant portion of people that love it.
Just saying, in the end, that either way isn't wrong. The major advantage that cel - shading has is the game still looks amazing in 20 years, while TP will look like a pixelated hunk of junk.
I agree, Tp did feel pixelated at times, and WW did not, but look at OoT, i didn't feel any pixelation, it always felt like a fresh, new game every time you played it. OoT had that kind of mixed graphics. You had the realistc sizes, like from TP, but then all the textures werent so detailed, like from WW, and thats what i think is part of the reason it was such a great game. IO have nothing against WW, and i think it was a great game, but sometimes i thought it was a little too happy, and bright, and not quite what you thought a fantasy series would be like, and Tp, was too realistic, and so it was the same. But OoT, felt like a real Fantasy series. So i think Nintendo should go for the mixed again.
And also,
By the way
Aonuma said it himself:
"With three dimensional videogames, or those that you might call more realistic, you have to have the appropriate proportions between all the objects and enemies. Human beings must be depicted naturally as we are. That would be rather strange on a small screen if you wanted to identify what a small object is or put in characters' actions, for example."
So the main reason they made the ds zelda's cel shaded was becasue it would be hard and wierd to have it be realistic.
I recently came across your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don't know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.
Lucy
For the record... TP was celshaded. Just not cartoony cel shaded, You can tell by the expressions in Link's face at times in the game, but yea, TP was also cel shaded.
Am I the only person who thought Wind Waker was subpar?
I love this site, but everyone here seems to think Wind Waker was some huge deal.
I love the little things about WW, I even enjoyed the graphics, so my problem isn't the usual "it doesn't look right" stuff. It just felt unfinished...
The game had it's moments and the temple of the gods was majestic, but halfway through the game it all turned awful.
Just seemed like they had some spectacular things planned but never delivered. Instead I was forced to use the stupid wand to find the goofy pieces. I didn't find it as an enthralling game, I found it tedious.
As I said I thought it was fantastic, till about halfway through.
I understand the love for Majora's Mask, it was a fantastic game. But it would not have sufficed as a flagship, it was better as a sequel.
My point is: if Zelda Wii is like the first half of Wind Waker then it should be fine, if it's like the last half of WW then it will be the most boring, tedious game ever made. Even without Tingle...
Hm...you make good points, but I'm afraid that I'm quite intrigued with the new style shown in Twilight Princess. Nintendo's been milking the cel-shaded style for a bit too long, in my opinion. It seems only right that a change comes along.