This is utter bullshit. They want to kill off the veterans. I knew it!

I don't really see what the criticism is, here. Because ST uses the PH engine, it is automatically going to be just like PH?

There is actually some chance that ST will turn out to be a great experience for the hardcore crowd- but I wouldn't bet on those chances.

Still, I live in hope.

I think Spirit Tracks will better Phantom Hourglass in some ways, but it'll be mostly the same experience: By it on/near release, play it, beat it, put it on the shelf for a year, do a 3-heart run, and never play it again. It'll be fun the first time 'round, but because of the similarities with Phantom Hourglass, it'll just feel samey, and the gimmicks in ST will just feel like the stuff from PH.

Spirit Tracks will most likely not be aimed primarily at 'core' Zelda fans, it'll probably be aimed at train fanatics, young children, and people who don't care for the Zelda series as we do.

Right now, the only Nintendo franchises I can trust to be 'hardcore' are Metroid, Star Fox, and F-Zero. And I don't think new games in any of them are planned.

While I think ST will be enjoyable to play overall, I doubt it will be a challenge and contain an in-depth storyline as the 'hardcore crowd' is said to want.

I don't think the developers have the same definition of "hardcore" as we do. To us, "hardcore" is the veteran crowd, the people who have broader tastes and harsher critisms. To them, "hardcore" is the fanboy crowd, the ones who go ZOMG ZELDA!!1! and worship any game released in spite of glaring flaws. The reason Nintendo pays more heed to the fanboys is because there are much, much more of them than there are veterans, and it shouldn't be too difficult to work out why they target the bigger crowd (Hint: MOAR MUNNAY)

^That = BAM.

Oh yes MDK. I can always expect the most clear minded indightful point of view to make me feel stupid.

Thank you.

So long as the game is CHALLENGING, I'm fine with playing around in a train.

MDK - You right in how they look at the crowd, but there are also stats out there for the games that do appease to the "hardcore" veteran fanbase that have major success - even selling more then a zelda game does. As much as I don't like the games, Halo franchise is a good example. GTA series, Resident Evil, Fable, etc. There are a lot of hardcore (as in,a ppeases veteran gamers) franchises out there that outsell Zelda titles. And, being that Zelda is efficiently on TWO platforms, there really is almost no excuse to not try and appease all. Handheld's should be more aimed at everyone, and the console should be aimed at the veterans.

Both titles are going to appease the fanboys, while appeasing the kiddies and the veteran gamers.

I think I'll take Bill Trinen's advice and stay away from sharp things and ledges for a while...

Nathan, you've completely misinterpreted my statement completely. I was referring solely to the Zelda fanbase, and was distinguishing between the fanboy, who is young, relatively new to the series, and thoughtlessly praises out of loyalty to the franchise, and the veteran, who's been around longer, played the older games, and has a more informed and critical opinion of the series as a whole. At the end of the day, the fanboys outnumber the vets, so there's more to gain by targeting them.

Also, LOZ Historian, I honestly can't figure out what you meant by that.

@MDK:

I was expressing my idiocy/faults at what you defined about the veteran players after my statements. Don't mind it too much.

I don't think their ignoring the veterans like us... They're just trying to find a gray area with the fan base norm and new gamers... So we shouldn't judge a book by its cover... Err... I just don't like it when a developer has to reassure the fans that a game is going to be appealing. That should go without saying...

People tend to fail to realize that the first Zelda games were 2D, and not 3D. I mean, we wouldn't have OoT and stuff if we didn't have LoZ, ALttP, LA...

Oh the IRONY.

@Goron Moron: I'm not really sure who you're replying to, but the current 2D Zelda's are nothing like they used to be. The ones you mentioned all offered a solid experience, the handheld Zelda's we have now are nothing but watered down shadows of them. True, they're still fun, but I'm starving for another enriching and purely entertaining Zelda, be it 2D or 3D.

Since Spirit Tracks looks like it was probably designed for the more casual players (I could be completely mistaken, so I'll reserve judgement until its release), my hopes are pointed to Zelda Wii.

I hate this stereotype amongst most Zelda fans that hardcore=console. I consider myself a hardcore Zelda fan, but I very much did not like Twilight Princess in the same aspect that I liked The Minish Cap or Phantom Hourglass. I always hear this, even as far back as the Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons, that for one reason or another, those are not 'real' Zelda titles, and that they are just push overs to keep Zelda fans appeased until the next console Zelda game is released. This stereotype does bother me. Label PH or ST as casual or not casual, but I was much more satisfied with PH than I ever was with TP.

Mases: I think the stereotype generally is aimed at what the trends in the market are. Generally, handheld systems are aimed at kids. Everyone and their mother owns a DS, sure, but still whenever I notice anyone else actually playing a DS.... it's always a kid. Hence, the impression becomes that when you make games for that system... you should aim them at the younger crowd. This isn't like I feel PH and ST are push overs... it's just you can easily tell their intended audience isn't the hardcore. The fanboy in me likes them because they are fun and certaintly are zelda titles, however they are the sort of games I play once and put them away for several years before touching again.

Meanwhile, TP was more engrossing to me. It was a much longer game, more epic boss battles, more complex puzzles, and a more indepth storyline. Personally for you Mases, you enjoyed PH much more then TP. But the sales figures, and magazine/website/whatever ratings say your in the minority. As the numbers pan out, TP is the second best selling Zelda title ever, next to OOT. TP also received a lot of 10/10 in reviews, while PH was around 9.3/10.

Obviously, PH was a quality title, but handhelds have rarely matched what the console titles have brought to the table the last 10 years. It's pretty evident when Nintendo is willing to license the handheld zelda's to others like capcom that they themselves focus more on the console side of things with this franchise.

I love how no one has played Spirit Track tracks and yet this article assumes that it is going to be the same experience as Phantom Hourglass. The article then gets angry at its own assumption. So whose responsible for its frustration?

"I love how no one has played Spirit Track tracks and yet this article assumes that it is going to be the same experience as Phantom Hourglass. The article then gets angry at its own assumption. So whose responsible for its frustration?"

It's a pretty safe assumption the experience wont just be similar to PH, but exactly the same, because PH was one of the best selling handheld Zelda's ever.

There was no news before the game announcement that it was in the works, let alone ready for release. That being said, it's also safe to assume hardly any development time went into the game. That's not a stretch, considering we just had PH 2 years ago. It also uses the same engine, and they have stated many times they want to appease everyone with the title, and if you look at past interviews after PH, they were very happy with PH and how it was received.

So, while the frustration is over assumptions, the assumptions themselves are pretty sound altogether. I wasn't exactly going out on a limb here. The assumptions are safe, and based purely off one trailor, there is no evidence to derail that thought. The feeling after that trailor was a PH repeat with a train instead of a boat.

It will sell well. It will be fun for 1 playthrough. I hope Nintendo proves me wrong, but that's not likely.

MM also came out 2 years after OoT using the same engine and it also turned into an exact duplicate, amirite?

Seriously, same engine =/= same game.

@TotG:
I was about to comment on how Nintendo's strategy for this game seems to be eerily similar to its strategy with MM-

Recycle a successful game engine, create a new gameplay element based on but slightly different than a previous gameplay element, and then use all the time you just saved to flesh out a deep game experience.

For MM, the engine was OoT's, and the gameplay element was the masks.
For ST, the engine is PH's and the gameplay element is vehicle travel in the overworld.

I could be wrong, and it could just be a shallow rehash (Nintendo's more recent track record has gone that way for awhile), but I'm hopeful. Not passionately optimistic, but hopeful.

You're kidding, right?? Majora's Mask is almost nothing like OoT. Sure, the graphics are similar if not identical, but the gameplay is so different. In fact, the whole feel of the game is different. In my opinion, it is one of the best Zelda games of all time. It took something brilliant, made it very different, yet kept it at the exact same level of brilliance.

Whatever. All Zelda games are brilliant. 'Cept toon ones.

OoT: You travel through time, use songs to unlock new areas, and collect items to gain new abilities. The main gameplay function is transformation between Child and Adult, which gives you access to multiple layers of the game world.

MM: You travel through time, use songs to unlock new areas, and collect items to gain new abilities. The main gameplay function is transformation between the four forms, which gives you access to multiple layers of the game world.

While I agree that MM was very original and distinct from OoT, there's no denying that on paper the two look very nearly the same in terms of the main quest, the graphical engine, and the gameplay engine. Because MM used an already-established engine, it was able to innovate in different ways. It was not just an "updated LoZ" like ALttP and OoT were but its own unique experimentation in gameplay and story, like AoL and LA.

I am arguing that if ST for the most part uses an adapted PH engine, the same principle of not needing to build a game from the ground up applies. They don't need to design a new engine, new graphics, etc.. They are free to focus on the things that make the gameplay unique.

That doesn't mean we'll get a product of the same quality as MM; it just means that Nintendo is in more or less the same position in terms of ST as it was in terms of MM.

@Stalchild: If that was towards me, I was being sarcastic. I meant MM turned out as a different experience than OoT, so ST can too.

Also, why except the "toon" ones? What is with all the cel-shaded hate?!

To me, Zelda games are a way to experience Hyrule. That's one of the reasons OoT and MM made such a great, lasting impression - the world itself held mystery, coherence and had an intriguing history. Hyrule's/Termina's presence was apparent - it all took place in one large world that you were thrown into.

Lex: Don't look at OoT and MM 'on paper'. They are games, not novels. If they sound similar on paper but are vastly different when it comes to execution, which is the more important?

I'm extremely skeptic about this one. It turns out to be as bad that I might just outright refuse to buy the game in extreme cases, which is really a first and a judgment to me on how far the series have fallen.
I absolutely hated Phantom Hourglass and its pathetic touch controls, among other things. I would definitely not want to see another similar game. I regret the day I actually bought that one in blind faith. Never again.
I had no problems whatsoever with Wind Waker's cel-shaded style, though. And although I liked Twilight Princess, I found it disappointing, mostly due to boring dungeons.
Majora's Mask was fun too.

But never again will I ever lay eyes on a Phantom Hourglass. Never. I seriously hope this will not turn out to be another Phantom Hourglass, but I am really skeptic that it will not be.